David Haynes

[David Haynes]

Good post. I’ll have some thoughts later.

I’m thinking we should break the ‘motivation’ topic off onto its own thread too. ?

Seems, as Tony says, that’s a big issue that is really the execution part of ones approach.

[David Haynes]

Interesting thread – too many topics to speak to all of them but…

To Angelo’s initial question (a very good one) I’d first be clear about separating ones personal goals from the “goal” of the Method. And I’d suggest that the goal of the Method is simply this: To demonstrate to yourself that you really can learn how to play the piano.

Think about it this way: The Sudnow Method gives you the basic tools to build a house and a relatively simple project (the garage?) to give you some idea of how it might be done. Maybe all you really want is a garage. But there are innumerable ways to design and build a house – not a single “right” way. And the Sudnow Method doesn’t describe all the possible houses available to you.

But you can’t just skip over the garage and go directly to the house. The garage is simpler but it’s still a significant task that requires time, patience, and attention to detail. Still, you do have some choice in what the final product looks like – but that doesn’t mean you can build the roof first.

In regard to Ted’s comments, I think you’re misreading how voicing should be thought about. And perhaps what “playing by ear” can be thought of to mean. While I agree with Tony that completely working out the harmony of a song by ear is a very difficult task, I’d also suggest it’s really unnecessary. You can find accurate lead sheets for just about whatever you want to play.

David’s “rules” for voicing are to give you a place to start. If you study some of his stuff in the Advanced Resources you’ll begin to see how many more approaches there are. BUT, you can’t learn to voice well if you don’t listen well. You’re making choices based on context and your own predilections. At the end of the day no one cares about your voicing as an intellectual exercise, they only care what it sounds like – so should you.

Formulas and “answers” are exactly the wrong approach. What’s it sound like? David’s rules give you a consistent place to start – but if you’re experimenting and you decide you like that b13 in a major chord, just use it. (Look into David’s discussion of polychords for some insight into possibilities). But you’ll never get the richness you might like if you’re only thinking of chords as single entities, independent of what comes before or after. For that matter you can even change a melody note if it fits a chord progression you like (although probably not a good idea if you’re playing with a singer.)

Blah, blah, blah. To Tony’s point, it’s easy to make this more complicated than it needs to be and thus be in a state of constant unease. Narrow your focus and get really good at the ‘simple’ part.

As I’ve often suggested, separate your practice time into “narrow and focused” and “just goofing around.” But keep them separate.

Thanks for all the provocative stuff guys. If anyone wants to spin part of this off into a separate thread, please do.

[David Haynes]

Hi Tony, welcome back.

There is a slightly reworked version of David’s info on picking out melodies in the Student Resources section.

I agree that it’s a valuable, if often ignored skill (by me too). I made a comment once to my friend Mary Louise Knutson about not really having any “sounds” in my head when I thought about improvising. Her view was that picking out melodies was probably the most important skill an improvisor could work on.

So think of it not so much as a prerequisite for playing songs by ear but rather as a more direction connection between hearing ‘in your head’ and playing on the piano. Thus the particular melodies you decide to pick out are less important that just the act of transposing them to the keyboard if you will.

As your skill develops you can attempt copying recorded solos or just scatting some little riff and picking that out. I think the end game of the practice is probably much more significant that we probably realize when we start.

But perhaps this deserves a topic of its own…

[David Haynes]

Thanks Angelo – sounds great. Always nice to hear what people are working on. I’m going to move this to the “Favorite Songs” topic and try to keep student recordings in one place.

[David Haynes]

In the ‘Student Resources – Basic’ there are some frequently asked questions culled from the old forum. The 4th question concerns the situation you describe here.

There are other possibilities. If you have the ‘advanced’ membership, there’s a section on that resources page about chord substitution that may provide some opportunities. Keep in mind that you’re determining a ‘target’ chord and then figuring out ways to get there.

In some situations a simple approach that may work is taking the chord that follows the major and use it as the second chord of the measure with the major and then repeating that sequence for the second chord. In other words, instead of a major for a full measure followed by a m7th for a full measure, play |M m7 | M m7 |

[David Haynes]

Good point. Taking the fun out of it pretty quickly makes one’s motivation evaporate. In general, if what you’re doing seems tedious do something else for a while – anything else.

[David Haynes]

Later on David backtracked a little on his ‘memorize 15 songs’ suggestion. He came to feel that the time needed to get and keep that many songs ‘in your hands’ was better spent learning different songs. That the variation was more helpful than the repetition.

I tend to agree. My experience memorizing (I just went back and memorized Misty again – which is a different story) is that it takes a ton of repetition and a peculiar sort of attention to song structure.

As much as anything I have no need to memorize 15 songs. If I’m playing impromptu I only need 3-4 and if there’s something more planned I’ll just grab a few fakebooks and I’ll have more songs than anyone would be willing to listen to anyway.

Plus, how do you pick just 15 songs? The list would be constantly changing and then you’re right back to the variation thing.

[David Haynes]

By the way, any topics that you mark as ‘favorite’ will be displayed in your forum profile (click your forum icon).

[David Haynes]

Hi Nick – hmmm, when I try to play the video you embedded I get a message “this video is not available”. Anyone else?

[David Haynes]

Mark, we had some issues after a recent update but I think they’re cleared up now. Someone else had the same issue and they’re seeing the videos now.

I just checked and they play fine for me. If you’re still having issues let me know exactly what’s happening. Make sure you log out and log back in.

Thanks,
David

[David Haynes]

Nick – I agree but I wonder if language affects this process. I don’t really think of ‘scales’ because that implies – to me – a pattern over time. I’m thinking more of, as you so cleverly put it, the ‘zig-zag-zig-zag’ of the Fm7. If I’m thinking, in this case, of the Eb major scale I’m not sure what happens. Interesting thought. I’ll have to sit down in front of a keyboard for a while.

The majors and minor sevenths don’t change much except as dictated by the melody note (although, it’s worth experimenting with the sounds, ignoring the ‘rules). The dominants really require facility with playing the chords before and after. You can’t make good voicing choices out of context. Eventually you learn (at least I did) to adjust dominants and with a couple passes your hand remembers a new shape – if you look at it that way. Not individual notes but a new shape. It’s startling when it first happens because you’re not sure how it could happen. Takes a while.

One thing the dot songs are good for is seeing David’s voicing choices. If you’ve developed your own voicing habits you’ll soon find that you can go back and learn some new patterns.

[David Haynes]

Sorry – the forum doesn’t support video attachments yet. You can check this link: Arturo Sandoval and other versions, Roy Hargrove for one and, interestingly, a version by Dinah Washington (who had recorded with Brown) with lyrics by Jon Hendricks. A more unconventional version was recorded by Sonny Rollins.

Clifford Brown died in a car accident in 1956 at the age of 25. Many felt he was, or soon would be, the greatest trumpeter of his generation. His close friend Benny Golson wrote this song in tribute.

From Ted Gioia’s “The Jazz Standards”:

‘Golson had earned a reputation as one of the premier composers in the idiom (hard bop). He was now determined to write a musical tribute to his departed colleague. He later described how he agonized over each note and that several weeks went by before he had put together a song that was both a fitting memorial and, even better, captured in some degree the musical personality of the late trumpeter.’

[David Haynes]

Not to sound facile, but by voicing a lot of songs and being lazy about writing fractions all the time. And finding the dots way too tedious.

Your hands just have to learn a lot of patterns. If you’re still working through fractions note by note and thinking about each one, you just can’t think and then consciously direct your fingers fast enough. When you see a Cm7 with a Bb melody, for example, the chord has to appear as a single shape to you, not as a collection of individual notes.

In that sense it’s not really different than reading traditional notation.

A few suggestions:
1. Actually write out the fractions for at least a couple dozen songs, even if you ‘know’ the chord. The repetition will help you see the patterns.
2. If you’re struggling with a song pick a different one. For various reasons some songs will be easier for you.
3. You’re not trying to memorize the song (a different sort of task, a different discussion) so quantity of songs is more important than retention at this point. You’ll need at least a couple good fakebooks. Full size lead sheets.

D

[David Haynes]

Hi Tom – one of my favorites too. I don’t have a dot version but it’s a pretty straightforward voicing. I have two lead sheets, one from an old, perhaps out of print, fakebook from CPP/Belwin, “The Jazz Facebook” and also a Warner Bros. publication “The Alan & Marilyn Bergman Songbook”, which has more traditional notation but the chords seem pretty accurate.

Here’s a version I did a number of years ago, although listening to it again I realize I inadvertently changed a couple melody notes in the bridge (the original is better).

[David Haynes]

Hi Angelo, good to hear from you.

Seems to me that the ‘voicing on the fly’ issue deserves its own thread. Why don’t you start a new topic and I’ll make some comments and observations there.

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