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David,
You have done a real service to the Sudnow community by preserving all those Song of the Month, Pianoside Chats, etc. for us. I can’t imagine what else there could possibly be, but certainly look forward to whatever you care to post. 🙂
Thanks so much…
Tony
Digital pianos are continuing to improve. Roland has been putting some of the technology used in my V-Grand and the V-Piano into their lower-priced products. A neighbor just bought a new Roland GP-607. I saw and played it this morning for the first time and thought it is quite nice. I played several standards in the “Sudnow” style and my neighbor thought I should set up a piano in our lobby. 🙂
There is a thread about the new Roland pianos at the piano world forum. I don’t post there much, but decided to today in this thread. People are discussing all manner of detail about these pianos, much of it guessing because they are simply not engineering employees of Roland and therefore can’t possibly know anything. My comment was that I suspect most of Roland’s customers couldn’t care less about all these real or imagined details, but instead just want a good piano experience, such as my neighbor now has.
How many people who buy Smart-TV flat screen TV’s know that these are really computers running the Linux operating system? What difference would that knowledge make to their viewing experience? One guy seemed angered by my assertion that most customers don’t care what goes on under the hood, and was challenging me saying that my post didn’t mean anything. He seemed offended that my neighbor bought an expensive digital piano. However, like acoustic pianos, with digital pianos, you do get what you pay for. No amount of wishing or pretending can get around this fact.
When I bought my V-Grand, I was looking for an immersive piano experience and that model was recommended to me by a real player, not an internet forum poser. The Roland model that my neighbor bought was recommended by his piano playing friends and not some internet poser. I have a cynical view of many of the people constantly posting in the digital piano sub-forum. Few are engineers and even fewer probably even play much themselves. The problem with the internet is that anybody can pose as whatever they want, yet still could be some 40 year old unemployed guy living in his mother’s basement. After a while, you can spot who the real decent people are though and avoid the rest.
If you want to learn about the current crop of digital pianos, regardless of brand, the only way I know of is to actually play them and determine what your response as a player is to each model you play. Today’s digital pianos have come far enough along that they are generally quite good and it is more a matter of what the individual player feels comfortable with, just as is true with an acoustic piano.
Forget about all the details of sound engines what goes into the keybeds, etc. If you stick with Yamaha and Roland, you will get a quality digital piano that will last many years. From what I have seen in forum discussions by owners of Kawai digital pianos, these tend to have more issues than do Roland and Yamaha, but people still do really like that brand too. There are other brands, but I am not really familiar with them and am not sure many outside of the “big three” are sold around town.
Tony
Hi Meredith,
I was born in Queens, but we moved to California when I was going into first grade, so I don’t remember much from that time. We ended moving to Southern California (the SF Valley) when I was in 4th or 5th grade, and lived there until I went into the Army. I never went back, and instead relocated to Minnesota.
Anyway, it would be really helpful and motivating to have some active students in these forums to keep each other focused and moving forward. I hope you stick around, as I intend to. I have been on again, off again with the Sudnow method over the years, and back on again now that I have re-retired. I have “Misty”, “As Time Goes By”, and most of “Someone To Watch Over Me” well in hand. I should be finished that one soon.
Tony
It is good to be back on the forum. It took some time to get back focused on the Sudnow method, but it comes back and things are going well.
There was one person on the piano forum that I recommended the Sudnow method to. He was asking about methods to learn essentially cocktail style piano, so I gave him my experience and comparisons to other methods that I have worked with. He posted later in the thread saying he had decided on the Sudnow method. I suggested he come here to this forum where everybody is focused on the same method for support, rather than a general forum such as piano world. I have not seen anybody new here yet though. I intend to stick around, and I post only rarely on piano world anymore. There i a lot of silliness there and people posting who don’t play at all, who pose as if they are actively playing.
I still have my Roland V-Grand and I personally like it much better than the newer lines Roland has come out with, though if I were on the market today, the LX-17 would be a fine choice, as I am sure some of the newer models would be too. I do think the digital piano has come into its own as an instrument, though I don’t see the point in expecting it to be an acoustic piano.
Tony
I told Jim (creator of Nightbirdmusic.com) about it being hacked and he said he would get on it. Apparently, he did because the last time I checked it, I didn’t get the warnings from my virus protection software. I don’t think he sells the book on his site, so you probably have to ask him directly via email. With all the other decent fakebooks around these days, I am not sure most folks would need to spend the extra money.
as for the Pro Chord Changes, I did mention them too:
“There is also a two-volume set called “Pro Chord Changes” by Frank Mantooth from Hal Leonard that I believe are still in print.” I didn’t realize they were essentially his older books, so thanks for that info.
Tony
Another long time, on and off, Sudnow student here. I must say that the most I have learned in terms of understanding music and what to do, has been via the Sudnow method. We really do learn a lot that many folks using other approaches seem to puzzle about, via the Sudnow method with his unique approach to scales and getting involved in voicing chords under the melody right away.
I remember talking to Sudnow and asking him how I could transfer what I learn in the Sudnow method to other styles of piano playing. At the time, I was less interested in cocktail style, other than as a vehicle to other styles. Over time, I have become quite enamored with cocktail style piano and have recommended in these forums, Jim Haskins’ CDs.
Anyway, Sudnow’s response was to explain that what we are doing is getting our hands to “learn the shapes of the keyboard”, and that we are learning far more than we realize as we plunk away (not his words describing “plunking”…) at these standards. He used the analogy of having 20 bowling balls lined up, and getting our hands to be able to instantly grab the holes in them in various configurations. He said that once we are able to easily and automatically do that, we could then pretty much learn whatever else we wanted to do with our hands (i.e. other piano styles) with relatively little difficulty. This was one of those one-on-one side conversations during one of those time that Sudnow came to town and the Sudnow study group was meeting at Markham’s house when he lived near 55 and 494.
Tony
My original post in this thread was give a study plan that Sudnow provided step by step in the 12 tape course. The 12 tape course is not required to follow that plan, since all the materials are here in one form or another. However, here is my own story. I was already well along by the time I got the 12 tape course, so rather than adhering to Sudnow’s study plan, I availed myself of the drills and later tapes in that course. I do find listening to Sudnow talk about the history of jazz piano, about study habits, etc. to be very inspiring because of his obvious love and enthusiasm for the subject matter. I do listen to these from time to time for that reason. Sudnow was unique and very motivating. To some, he is probably a distraction. I have certainly heard that enough. But for me, he is inspiring. different strokes for different folks, I guess.
My first experience with the Sudnow course was an earlier one than the 12 tape course. My first had 5 tapes, and the audio on them kept fading in and out, but I was used to that because I had spent so many years listening to shortwave radio. Anyway, Sudnow presented two songs: Misty and As Time Goes By. He did not play either one on those earlier tapes, so I just listened to performances of both that I found on various albums, and then figured out how to work from the dot songs. It really was not hard or confusing to me at all. After that, I started voicing my own tunes. I found that a lot of answers to my voicing questions were to be found in those first two “dot” songs, just spending time looking at how Sudnow handled various situations.
That first year, I worked by myself and did fine. It was when I came into contact with other Sudnow students who had previous lessons and seemed to question much of Sudnow’s wisdom that I began to feel that just maybe there was a better way, and that was when I let myself get off track. I worded it that way on purpose. It is nobody’s fault but my own to have done that.
I purchased the 12 tape method when Sudnow came to town to give a seminar at a piano store in Roseville, MN. I did not attend the seminar, but showed at the end. I got to meet Sudnow, play Misty for him, and purchase the 12 tape course. I find listening to him to be motivating. I enjoyed the voicing drills on the tapes and in the book, as well as the stride tape.
However, I personally find working with dot songs to be downright tedious, and therefore agree with Sudnow’s original premise to get away from them as soon as possible. It is much more interesting to be creating my own voicings, and there is a feeling of accomplishment that goes with doing so.
To me, the 12 tape course was the most complete, but obviously even that first 5 tape course with nothing more than the seminar itself and a 3 ring binder with several pages in it was enough for me. The key is desire. As Sudnow points out: “You have to want it”. The question and bottom line is how badly we want it. It is as simple as that. Sudnow brings the “horse” (the student) to water, but can’t make him or her drink.
If thee ever was a course that brings the student directly face to face with his or her true motivations, it is the Sudnow method.
We really truly do not need any more than the original two dot songs Misty and As Time Goes By and the voicing rules. All the rest is a distraction. When you find your own individual “rhythm” for the course, let NOBODY else distract you. It is a colossal waste of time to go running off in some direction that promises faster results or tells you that you are not doing it right because it takes a long time to find your way back to that original rhythm you had going through it yourself. I am living proof of that, but I am back.
Tony
There is one other book I want to recommend. I didn’t think of it earlier because it is a guitar book, but the information is definitely relevant to the piano and the Sudnow method. Robert Conti, the jazz guitarist has quite a few teaching materials available in the form of both books and DVDs. He has two books that focus on playing “chord melody” (the guitar version of cocktail style piano).
The first book “Chord Melody Assembly Line” is essentially parallel to the Sudnow method for piano, and is not what I am recommending.
The second book “The Formula” shows how, by manipulating the bass line, you can play a different series of chords every time you play the same melodic passage. Though the book shows guitar chord diagrams, the information is perfect for the piano, and Conti told me that keyboard players are buying the book.
You use whatever Sudnow voicing rules you want, but the chord being voiced is then dictated by the bass note you choose using Conti’s approach, rather than what some fakebook dictates. This, then, is very relevant to the Sudnow method, rather than steering you away on some tangent.
Tony
Hi guys…
Glad to see that there is still a bit of activity. I tried generating activity in this forum a while back, but it seemed to fizzle. I have said this on other occasions, but will say it again – David Sudnow is/was singularly the most influential person in my musical journey. He solidified for me a practical approach to making sense out of all the music theory, as well as giving me a solid sense of how to practice. I really would like to see this site continue to exist and even better, flourish. Kudos to David Haynes for keeping the Sudnow method alive and available.
I still have my Roland V-Grand, and am ever grateful to my wife for pushing me to just shut up and buy it. 🙂 This thing is so good that it transcends the constant march of new products being introduced every year. It is a pleasure to play. I have played Roland’s new line (LX-17 and similar), and can safely say that they have yet to top the V-Grand/V-Piano. David Haynes was my influence for getting it (beyond my wife’s urging). He bought a Yamaha grand way back when and I always thought that was the coolest thing – go for the best right away and don’t look back.
As for song play, I still listen a lot to Jim Haskins’ cocktail piano. I have all of his CDs. Of course, I listen to others too. I still enjoy Bill Evans, but have lately been re-discovering Keith Jarrett. Still, my absolute favorite vocal collection is the Ella Fitzgerald Songbooks series.
As for playing, I have always been interested in pianists along the lines of David Lanz, Michele McLaughlin, and others, as well as the standards via the Sudnow method. I seem to move between spending time on standards via the Sudnow method and learning music from these “new age” players by ear off the recordings.
There are two books (related to the Sudnow method) that I would like to recommend to folks here. They do not conflict with the Sudnow method. If anything, consider them as extensions, like “super piano chats”:
Harmonic Foundation For Jazz and Popular Music by Jimmy Amadie
Piano Improvisation: A Powerful Practical system by Frank Caruso and Karl Mollison
The first book is all about creating chord voicings and harmonizing a melody. It is essentially a superset of the Sudnow voicing rules. The book has been around jazz circles for a long time, went out of print, and then was picked up again (though I don’t know for how long). Consider that both Mel Torme and Woody Herman wrote forewords for the book.
The second book is a solid approach to improvising. One really important aspect of this book is that it gives EXACT fingering for playing improv lines on the piano. Frank Caruso is an active full time pro player and jazz piano teacher and says that the fingerings are very important so you don’t box yourself into a corner while improvising. Fingering has always been something of a mystery to me on the piano, and this book directly addresses that, as well as giving you a solid vocabulary for improvising in most any style. Caruso says it is the approach he uses on gigs all the time.
Often, when somebody recommends a book or course, it steers away from the Sudnow method. These two books really don’t. I would say that after you get a few tunes under your belt, these are a good means of furthering your skill set, rather than a means to move away from the Sudnow method and on to something else. From my perspective, if one were to focus solely on the Sudnow approach, then all you really need to go on forever with new ideas as a sort of “Part 2”, would be these two books. I own lots of books and methods, and in hindsight, I can definitely whittle it down to these two and discard the rest.
Tony
David,
That is fine with me. I will cut and paste my extra little post on motivation into another thread called “Motivation”.
Really, I think motivation is the biggest thing. It is said that, when a person gets sober, not drinking is no longer the problem – living is. The same can be said for the Sudnow method. Once a person understands what s/he is to do, motivation then becomes the problem.
Tony
One more thing I should add to this discussion regarding motivation…
Every day we each make a decision as to whether to practice or not that day. When we miss a day, it becomes easier to miss the next day and easier again the next, until we realize we are not playing or practicing at all any more. This is one HUGE problem with self-teaching that seems to be less of a problem when we have to answer to a real live teacher and there is money on the table. When self-teaching, we have nobody to answer to except ourselves.
For me, as long as I remain aware that this is a decision I have to make every day, and a commitment that I have to renew every day, I seem to do better than I might otherwise.
Sudnow suggested having a group locally of students and that we play for each other. That provides motivation because we would not want to show up at the next meeting and have nothing to show for the time we were supposed to have spent practicing since the last meeting. We could do that here if a group of us were to agree to post at regular intervals, recordings of ourselves playing. It doesn’t have to be a complete polished performance, but only what we have accomplished since the last recording, even if only a few chords.
Tony
After thinking more about this, I can give a very short and direct answer to Ted’s questions:
The only way to internalize the procedure of voicing and memorizing tunes is to do it via the process that Sudnow lays out. Getting a computer to do it will only serve to bypass the learning process entirely, leaving you with a whole lot of misspent effort.
Knowing this, the decision to go through the process or not can only be made by you, and will depend entirely on how badly you desire to learn this skill.
Tony
Ted,
Personally, I think you are making this far too complicated. Sudnow wanted to simplify the process for us by giving us the voicing “recipes”. I think the bet approach is what Sudnow put forth. Follow the voicing rules “assiduously” (his word…). Download the PDF of “Danny Boy” here on the site and work through the voicing exercises in that, taking time to read the explanation for each voicing as many times as needed to understand. Then, get that tune into your hands so you both understand the voicings and have them in your hands and ears. Then, start on a tune from a fakebook, referring back to the explanations in “Danny Boy”. In Sudnow’s book that accompanied the seminar recordings, there was a section on difficult voicings. I am sure that it is somewhere on this site as a PDF too. Study that.
Remember that Sudnow said to expect to be frustrated when first doing voicings. We just have to work through that. We are doing the voicings at first, chord by chord and our hands can’t grab them fast enough to be able to experiment and really hear what is going on. That comes with time and experience.
In the early versions of the course, Sudnow provide only “Misty” and “As Time Goes By”, and wanted us to do our own after those two songs were well in hand – memorized. If you were to study the voicings used in both of those, you would encounter most of the situations you will encounter voicing other songs. Personally, I think that if you get those two tunes in hand and then do the Danny Boy exercise voicings, that should be enough to get started on your own.
I have been a software engineer for more than 20 years. An “engineer” typically works close to the hardware, writing firmware, delving into the kernel and drivers if there is an OS (typically embedded Linux these days), working with schematics and scopes, etc., so that the work is a combination of software and hardware. I have also done some application programming, though to me, engineering work is much more interesting (and pays better…). Despite that experience, when it comes to Sudnow, I think that adding ANYTHING beyond what Sudnow describes, does little more than separate you from the all important process of voicing tunes and getting them into your hands.
So, my recommendation overall, in addition to what I already said is to go back and really listen to the seminar. You may come away with a bit different sense of what Sudnow really said and what that means you should be doing every day if you really want to acquire this skill on the keyboard.
Tony
I suspect that this thread has run its course. Looking at the dates for the last post in other threads here, it appears to me that somewhere around 5 months ago, activity pretty much stopped for some reason.
Is anybody else still around, interested in/practicing the Sudnow method, and reading these forums at all?
I will check in here daily for the next week or so and if there is no activity, I will stay directly in contact with David occasionally to see if anything is cooking, but will otherwise just continue on my own. It would be a real shame if the Sudnow method has lost favor and folks have simply lost interest and moved on. It really is a worthwhile course – if you have the time that it deserves. As I am re-retired, I am able to once again put in the time for listening to music intently and playing as per the method. Surely there are others…
Tony
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